{"id":1282,"date":"2014-07-03T18:33:35","date_gmt":"2014-07-03T18:33:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/?p=1282"},"modified":"2014-07-03T18:34:04","modified_gmt":"2014-07-03T18:34:04","slug":"some-responses-to-the-racialists","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/2014\/07\/03\/some-responses-to-the-racialists\/","title":{"rendered":"Some responses to the racialists"},"content":{"rendered":"


\n<\/a>Right, back to business. \u00a0Occidental Dissent and BHM have written responses to my <\/span>anti-Racialist pieces<\/a> and they do deserve something of a response. \u00a0I’m going to start with BHM because, well:<\/span><\/p>\n

I wouldn\u2019t call him the finest rhetorician that Nietzsche could want to defend him, but his style is at least consistent and has the sort of casual superiority and self-confidence that I think most people who don\u2019t consider him an enemy find appealingly arrogant.\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Terribly sweet to him and I will hope to do that justice. \u00a0However, I’m not going to repeat myself, so any arguments that come up in both pieces, so I’ll have to juxtapose those sections.<\/p>\n

Yes, racial determinism is really a<\/strong> thing<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

There’s a constant argument that no-one is really arguing for racial determinism. \u00a0Here we have BHM:<\/p>\n

\u00a0The truth as far as I or anyone can tell is that neither culture no race is sufficient to explain how a society thrives or falls.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Meanwhile, Occidental Dissent dismisses this as “de Gobineauism”, and argues the same thing.<\/p>\n

This is where one has to see the difference between arguing on the internet and genuine scientific discussions. \u00a0When I write something in a paper, long before it gets criticised by the community it’ll have been gone over minutely by the reviewers, and long before they do so, it will have been examined in detail by my fellow authors. \u00a0Any lack of clarity or minor point of difference will be picked up on and criticised. \u00a0Not so here.<\/p>\n

BHM criticises me for relying solely on the peer-reviewed literature. \u00a0He’s quite right that this policy doesn’t make me automatically right. \u00a0What it does is set strong limits on how wrong I can be.<\/p>\n

Huge chunks of the racialist milieu take exactly the racial determinist tack. \u00a0Here is Jared Taylor:<\/p>\n

“Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization \u2014 any kind of civilization \u2014 disappears.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Similarly, John Derbyshire openly dismisses culture as a real force. \u00a0Responding to Mark Steyn, he writes:<\/a><\/p>\n

Ah, culture.\u00a0\u00a0Of course it\u2019s not about race!\u00a0\u00a0Nothing is about race, because\u00a0there is no such thing as race<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0(Repeat 100 times.)\u00a0\u00a0It\u2019s about\u00a0culture<\/em>\u2014the aether, the phlogiston, of current social-anthropological speculation, whose actual nature is mysterious, but whose explanatory power is infinite.\u00a0\u00a0You know, culture:\u00a0those habits, folkways, beliefs, ways of thinking and behaving and connecting that arise from…\u00a0\u00a0pure chance!\u00a0\u00a0Or geography (see below).\u00a0\u00a0Or something… but\u00a0definitely<\/em>\u00a0nothing to do with biology.\u00a0<\/span><\/span>\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Please don\u2019t get me wrong.\u00a0\u00a0I am sure Mark Steyn is sincere here.\u00a0\u00a0I am sure he believes this stuff about \u201cculture.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So when\u00a0Occidental Dissent\u00a0<\/em>argues:<\/p>\n

\u00a0no one argues for racial determinism, let alone racial uniformism,<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He is just plain wrong. \u00a0I’ve already cited the stuff coming out from\u00a0Radish<\/em> and\u00a0TheRightStuff<\/em> and the rest of it. \u00a0It is simply disingenuous to pretend that this is not the line being taken.<\/p>\n

The Politics of Multiracialism<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0 BHM first of all pulls me up on the politics, that it’s a nice theory to just ignore race, but when you have a multi-racial society where too many unscrupulous people are stirring up racial divisions, it is just not feasible. \u00a0You may wish to just deal with people as individuals, but it doesn’t work when the black ‘community leader’ down the road is demanding higher taxes on you to pay for whatever, and the latino ‘community leader’ is asking for something similar, and \u00a0– and so on. \u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Also, I don’t think enough emphasis is put on the deep biological variability in humanity. \u00a0There seems to be an assumption that because I am arguing for human variability, I’m arguing for uniformity. \u00a0That is, that I dismiss the black\/white IQ gap in the United States. \u00a0I don’t, and nor do I dismiss the implications. \u00a0If the gap is real, it follows that black Americans will be underrepresented in a host of positions and will do worse\u00a0on average<\/em> than whites at those – and that this difference has nothing to do with\u00a0currently existing racism<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Let me give a hypothetical. \u00a0Societies A and societies B are racially homogeneous. \u00a0B has suffered considerable famines and diseases, so when members of B migrate to A, they do worse on average. \u00a0 Their descendants will catch up, but the\u00a0people alive at that point in time will not<\/em>.<\/p>\n

The political problems arise here because of a) a scientific problem and b) an ethical one. \u00a0The scientific problem is the failure of people to understand just how variable our species is . \u00a0So they deny the biological reality and assume that the\u00a0only\u00a0<\/em>reason for the differences in performance must be some form of oppression.<\/p>\n

The ethical one is the collectivist premise underlying so much of this. \u00a0Take the subject for reparations for slavery in the United States – crudely phrased “Whites owned blacks as slaves, so they owe them money”. \u00a0Now, can you find me a white slave owner in the United States alive today? \u00a0Anyone even with ties to slavery (okay, the Clintons<\/a>, but you know what I mean)? \u00a0Or any black American who has been kept as a slave in that way?<\/p>\n

What this argument is that people should be punished because they look similar to criminals at another point in space and time, and other people should be rewarded because they look similar to victims at a point in space and time.<\/p>\n

Or: A violated the rights of B, so it’s okay if C violates the rights of D.<\/p>\n

This sort of thing is racism defined. \u00a0How is it any different from Upton Sinclair writing:<\/p>\n

The ancestors of these black people had been savages in Africa; and since then they had been chattel slaves, or had been held down by a community ruled by the traditions of slavery. Now for the first time they were free, free to gratify every passion, free to wreck themselves …<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That said, please read the following.<\/a>\u00a0 Even if you correct for IQ and educational levels, blacks in America have a harder time of it than whites. \u00a0I’m not even going to get into the subject of crime and punishment, but I have heard stories of miscarriages that would wring tears from a stone – and, yes, they do tend to disproportionately affect black Americans.<\/p>\n

To the subject of immigration then: with the exception of Islamic immigration, which is the most idiotic policy implemented since 1945, I am broadly in favour\u00a0if certain preconditions are met<\/em>. \u00a0Getting those in place is a devil of a job.<\/p>\n

As an example, most of continental Europe still has an ethnic, rather than a civic, conception of citizenship. \u00a0That is, you have to be born German; you can’t become German. \u00a0I\u00a0hate that that is so, but I don’t write against it. \u00a0I don’t because I can’t. \u00a0If two world wars, the Holocaust, and the complete destruction and rebuilding of Germany couldn’t expunge that mentality, what chance do I have?<\/p>\n

So there is an argument for restricted immigration – that there are just too many potential problems that can arise through misunderstanding, historical legacy, or some fools willfully stirring up trouble, that there is a limit to how many people a given nation can support and so on. \u00a0That needs to be remembered.<\/p>\n

I’ve written before that I understand that point of view. \u00a0However, it remains a point of view that is the result of spending too much time reading things online rather than interacting in the real world. \u00a0Think about your own life: how much trouble do you\u00a0really<\/em>\u00a0get because of racial strife? \u00a0Are you really affected negatively members of other races who are determined to fight you – more so, say, than the asshole boss who doesn’t know his fucking job and is making yours impossible as a consequence?<\/span><\/p>\n

When it comes to conflicts between different groups, in the United Kingdom it is at its absolute worst between the English and the Irish, shortly followed by the Scottish and the Welsh. \u00a0I have never heard the kind of tribal hatred expressed by any immigrant than I heard from Scots towards the English – and, yes, this has political consequences.<\/p>\n

As I also wrote, the ability of race-hucksters of all colours to stir up trouble is in a steady decline, and furthermore, we have the best of all colours on our side when it comes to opposing all forms of racialism. \u00a0This is especially true since we find ourselves with a common enemy: Islam (something I shall return to in time).<\/span><\/p>\n

Next, on the subjects of IQ scores, BHM makes the, correct, point that there is something iffy about IQ scores, that:<\/p>\n

it seems unlikely that that is the entire story, as noted it seems unlikely that a 1900\u2032s Dutchman was so mentally retarded as to be unable to understand soccer<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

True, but IQ is the tool we have. \u00a0If we abandon IQ as a proper tool, then a huge amount of racialist discourse collapses.<\/p>\n

BHM is upset with my comment about the same\u00a0rate of increase<\/em> in black white IQ scores, that I said seems indicative of a same or similar base level of intelligence. \u00a0By counterexample, he cites the fact that Japanese children grow taller on an American diet, as do Nilotic children – but no one would think that they have the same potential for growth. \u00a0I take his point, but to prove it he would have to show that the\u00a0rate of gain<\/em> was the same for both Japanese and Nilotic children, something that his study does not show (if anyone has any work on this, I would love to read it).<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Next he criticizes my definition of the five racial groups. \u00a0I have seen a great number of racialists complain about exactly that. \u00a0Well, here we can \u00a0see the difference between the scientific amateurs and the professionals. \u00a0The definition I used was popularized in\u00a0Before the Dawn<\/em> by Nicholas Wade. \u00a0Wade’s work has received widespread approval and praise in the racialist circles and\u00a0none<\/em> of his defenders have been willing to object at the time. \u00a0They only do so when I point out the implications of this.<\/p>\n

Finally, I don’t think BHM really gets what I’ve been saying:<\/p>\n

.<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, yes we get it already they\u2019re [the racialists] Terrible People (TM), hell I might actually agree with you (they do often seem like total asshats) but everyone this side of the internet divide probably already knows that, and at least they had the balls to throw a challenge your way (plus Alexander McNabb is funny in a way I don\u2019t think he ever intended to be).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Actually, what I said was that they’re not really that terrible. \u00a0The racialists like to\u00a0think<\/em> of themselves as bad, baaaaad boys, but they’re not really.<\/p>\n

Now to the\u00a0Occidental Observer!<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

I’ve pointed out the retreat from the position from racial determinism. \u00a0OD tries this writing as follows:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

To show that racialism, so defined, is true one only needs to show that between the said racial groups genetic differences condition practically important outcome differences.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Actually – not. \u00a0Unless racial determinism \u00a0is real, the whole thing collapses. \u00a0I repeat what Ayn Rand wrote, something that is still not being touched by any of the people I argue with (Radish<\/em> tried<\/a>, but Karl Boetel seems to be still licking his wounds…)<\/p>\n

Even if it were proved\u2014which it is not\u2014that the incidence of men of potentially superior brain power is greater among the members of certain races than among the members of others, it would still tell us nothing about any given individual and it would be irrelevant to one\u2019s judgement of him. A genius is a genius, regardless of the number of morons who belong to the same race\u2014and a moron is a moron, regardless of the number of geniuses who share his racial origin. It is hard to say which is the more outrageous injustice: the claim of Southern racists that a Negro genius should be treated as an inferior because his race has \u201cproduced\u201d some brutes\u2014or the claim of a German brute to the status of a superior because his race has \u201cproduced\u201d Goethe, Schiller and Brahms.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

No one tries to answer this – because they cannot.<\/p>\n

OD also has trouble with the Wade definition of the three main races, preferring to say that ‘race’ can mean any group of common descent. \u00a0So a family could be considered ‘a race’ by this standard.<\/p>\n

It’s not so much the argument that I find interesting, but the fact that none of the racialists bothered to make it when Wade was all the rage on the racial right.<\/p>\n

Next OD argues that IQ differences are strongly predictive of national outcome – \u00a0I don’t know what he thinks that he is proving since I have already admitted that I accept both differences between groups and that these differences have practical consequences. \u00a0What I have argued is that that these differences are not racially fixed.<\/p>\n

Despite this, OD makes some interesting points. \u00a0For example, he cites a study of historical numeracy between different cultures and races and argues that China was far more advanced than, say, Peru in the 1600-1800 periods. \u00a0There are, to my mind, two big problems here:<\/p>\n

1) I’m getting tired of having to repeat this – that the Amerindian populations are\u00a0descended<\/em> from Eastasians (obvious when you look at them) so this doesn’t seem to support the racialist argument one iota\/<\/p>\n

2) \u00a0The second problem is that it misses that China has millenia of civilization behind it at this point. \u00a0Conversely, the Inca Empire had only just established itself.<\/p>\n

Next OD mentions that Amerindians do worse than white Americans on tests. \u00a0Again, you can’t really compare two peoples when one has been hounded almost to nonexistence.<\/p>\n

I’m going to republish this graph from\u00a0Occidental Descent<\/em> because I really don’t think that he realizes what he’s just put up:<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"rac10\"<\/a><\/p>\n

What’s important about this ‘hockey stick’ is not the graph but the blade. For most of recorded history, there was… precisely zero difference in accomplishment between the different races. \u00a0This is even worse if you consider how long they have been in existence. \u00a0Try and imagine what that graph’d look like if we extended the X-axis to 50,000 years ago, the time of the great diaspora and the differentiation of the human family. \u00a0We’re supposed to believe that the racial characteristics that cause white racial superiority were just doing\u00a0nothing<\/em> for\u00a0forty nine and a half thousand years<\/em>? \u00a0And only in the last five hundred have they begun to work?<\/p>\n

The origin of our modern civilization, of everything associated with civilization worth the name – rule of law, scientific progress, the industrial revolution – is Europe. \u00a0That’s an open secret. \u00a0It’s just that Europe managed to figure it out before the rest of the world. \u00a0But the rest is catching up, and even exceeding us.<\/p>\n

Racialists would do well to remember that.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Right, back to business. \u00a0Occidental Dissent and BHM have written responses to my anti-Racialist pieces and they do deserve something…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":22,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[17,25,1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1282","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-life-and-reason","category-race-and-racism","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1282","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/22"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1282"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1282\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1285,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1282\/revisions\/1285"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1282"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1282"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/skepticink.com\/prussian\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1282"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}